“There is nothing worse than having somebody else tell your own story for you.” – Jessica Schaefer
Jessica Schaefer (@JFran_PR) is Founder of Bevel, a strategic communications firm with a portfolio in fintech and venture capital. After serving as Assistant Vice President and Head of Marketing Communications at Moody’s Analytics, Jessica went on to lead media relations for Point72, a family office managing the assets of Steven A. Cohen. She currently manages Bevel while serving as Chief Communications Officer for Acorns.
To listen to Jessica's quick interview on habits, routines, and inspirations, click here.
Topics discussed with Jessica Schaefer
- PR vs. strategic communication
- Working with Steven Cohen and with Acorns
- Working with companies from seed to IPO
- Building executive profiles
- How Bevel is changing the game
- Crafting a narrative for a company
- Controversy can be good
- Recognizing media opportunities and crisis management
- Why PR is a smart investment
Jessica Schaefer Resources
- Connect with Jessica Schaefer: Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn | Bevel
- Bain
- McKinsey
- Moody's
- Point72
- Steven Cohen
- Acorns
- WeWork
- Adam Neumann
- Acorns on the Today Show
- Elude
- The Shorty Awards
- Fortune
- TechCrunch
- Recode
- Peloton
- Robinhood
- Bill Gurley
- Benchmark
- Torch Capital
- Plaid
- Theranos
- Bevel, Books + Bourbon
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Transcript
Daniel Scrivner:
Jessica, welcome to Infinite Games. Thank you so much for coming on.
Jessica Schaefer:
Thanks for having me.
Daniel Scrivner:
So, I am thrilled to sit down and talk with you for a bunch of reasons. But this episode, we're really going to explore PR around not only your background, but obviously the firm that you founded Bevel. And the reason there is because I feel like I don't understand PR very well and I'm guessing I'm not alone. And so I've worked at companies where PR has played a massive role in making the company successful. I think Square is a great example there, and yet I don't really understand the tactics, I don't really understand how it works. And so the goal is to sit down with you and try to get as much downloaded from your brain as possible, all about PR.
Jessica Schaefer:
Awesome.
Daniel Scrivner:
So, what I want to start is just at a super basic level, if you could define PR and talk about the role PR plays in building brands and companies over time.
Jessica Schaefer:
So, ≠ And that can be your stakeholders, that can be investors, that can be employees, both internal and new perspective employees. And then of course, the media. But I sort of think of the media as the last thing when I think about PR.
Daniel Scrivner:
So, it's much more starting internally and then working out? Is that the right idea?
Jessica Schaefer:
Starting internally, figuring out what is our product, what messages do we want to communicate externally? Who do we want to communicate to? And sometimes that makes sense doing it with the media. And sometimes it doesn't. A good example is my husband says I'm very good at PR. I never lose any argument, but oftentimes I never get into arguments because I'm always pivoting and switching the topic, which can be very frustrating to be married to me.
Daniel Scrivner:
You take your media relation skills.
Jessica Schaefer:
Very seriously.
Daniel Scrivner:
Which is probably helpful and probably not so helpful at the same time.
Jessica Schaefer:
Right. Exactly.
Daniel Scrivner:
I want to clarify terms as well too. So, PR obviously stands for public relations. I've also heard it referred to as strategic communications. Do you have a favorite word? Have you just accepted PR because it's well known?
Jessica Schaefer:
We haven't accepted PR and I'll tell you why. I hate the term PR girl or, "Hey, you're the PR?" I don't know if you've ever heard that-
Daniel Scrivner:
No.
Jessica Schaefer:
... but people tend to say it. They say, "Oh, hey, it's the PR." It's sort of strange. You would never call a doctor, doctor girl or whatever. So anyways, at least at Bevel. So, we are a strategic communications firm and we are structured much more in a way similar to a Bain or McKinsey, and think of ourselves as strategic advisors versus straight public relations.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. That makes sense. When you think about incredible PR and I'm really excited to hear your answer on this, what handfuls of companies come to mind and what do you like about their approach? Part of that is I think everybody has an opinion on what ads they like. I think it's a very different, how do you like how companies show up in the world? So I'm curious what it would be your top list or two to three companies you think are interesting in terms of how they approach it.
Jessica Schaefer:
Wow! I think all the companies that I work on, obviously my favorite kind of PR is the ability to really change and shift a narrative. So, in my career when I worked at Moody's, it was just coming out of the subprime mortgage crisis and they were largely blamed for causing it. And so the goal and the mission was how do we learn from what happened and how do we shift the brand and take accountability and then talk about what we're doing differently? And so that was an interesting exercise. And then from Moody's, I went to Point72 and met Steve Cohen's family office, a lot of people know him for the show, Billions, which is loosely based on the firm. But when SAC Capital was shut down for insider trading and then Steve, he's one of the most resilient people that I've ever met, kept going and reopened.
Jessica Schaefer:
It was critical to rebuild the brand and talk about what we were doing differently and how we could attract top talent. And I remember when I made the decision to join Point72, a lot of people were like, "What are you doing? You have so many opportunities at Moody's. This doesn't really make sense. Why would a hedge fund manager need PR?" And everyone needs PR. I think anyone who is leading any category can really benefit from reputation management. And it's not something that comes to everyone easily, nor should it, unless you're a sociopath and you just like talking about yourself.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah, that's true. It falls into the bucket of skills that we should all probably be taught a little bit of, but we inevitably we're taught nothing. We just have to figure out on our own.
Jessica Schaefer:
Exactly.
Daniel Scrivner:
Talk a little bit more about Point72 and Stephen Cohen. And as we discussed, I think everyone listening to this podcast will definitely know who Stephen Cohen is, and I think have interest. So, I'm curious just if you could share your perspective on what was it like to be a part of the firm and what was it like to work with him?
Jessica Schaefer:
It was really exciting. I think the opportunity to join was a highlight of my career and it was... Or is arguably one of the most well known stories in finance. And so to be in the room and to be the person who was deciding on strategy, which reporters we were speaking with, which conferences we were speaking at. And the baseline was always, no, we're not speaking with anyone, which is a strategy in and of itself. Everybody wants to know what they don't have access to. Right? And so we were extremely strategic about who we would speak to and when we would speak to them. I would say working with Steve as a spokesperson and a thought leader, he was one of the smartest people I've ever worked for, mostly because he would ask the question that would cut through every other question so you wouldn't have to be in the meeting for an hour.
Jessica Schaefer:
He would take a meeting that was supposed to last 90 minutes and just cut to the core of it within five minutes. So, I thought that was fascinating to watch. He really is an introverted person. He loves to trade and he loves his family and that's all he wanted to do. So he would carve out time to focus on PR, which was not something that came to him naturally. He didn't like to speak in front of a lot of people. We did a lot of work on what words are you going to say? When are you going to say them? And why are you going to say them? And it was mostly spent on Sundays at 7:30 AM in his Picasso room. So, I didn't really have a life to be honest on the weekends because I would have to get up really early to drive there on Sundays. But it was definitely worth it.
Daniel Scrivner:
When you work with someone like that, who's a public figure but they're very introverted, did you have to do any explaining about why PR was important or did he already understand that?
Jessica Schaefer:
He understood the importance, but there are a lot of executives who their first response is always no. And I think as a strategic communicator, coming to the table with the opportunity in my mind is only 25%. The rest is convincing the executive team why this matter is why they should even spend their time and then the really, really manufacturing and managing the opportunity. So I like to say that an interview is not a space for new thoughts. It's an ad usually, or it's an opportunity to talk to an audience that you haven't communicated to. So, you should never go into an interview and sort of just speak off the cast. Right? That doesn't make a lot of sense. But you'll find CEOs are busy and they don't take the time to prep. You'll send them the prep document. So I think one of the most important things is to really understand your executive and how to best communicate with them, whether that's via Slack or text or call or email or whatever.
Daniel Scrivner:
Super interesting. Percentage is kind of staggering. The opportunity is only 25% of it and the rest 75% is literally working on it, managing it. I think that says a lot obviously about the importance of prep.
Jessica Schaefer:
And the after piece of it too. So when you're junior and you get into PR, you get really excited if you get enough opportunity and then you tend to get disappointed if your spokesperson turns it down. Usually they turn it down because you didn't give them reasons why it's important and you didn't come to the table ready with that information. And then the rest of it is actually managing the interview, doing the follow up, figuring out what's interesting. How do you build out the story? How do you bring other resources and sources to the table? And that's something that I think differentiates Bevel from a lot of other communications firms.
Daniel Scrivner:
It's like landing the opportunity is a small part, then begins the real work.
Jessica Schaefer:
Right. Exactly.
Daniel Scrivner:
So you have this experience at Point72, then you move to Acorns where you joined as chief communications officer. And part of that is, Bevel has a really interesting model, which we can talk about now, of kind of embedding within the firm. Talk about what attracted you to Acorns and what it's been like, because that's something now you've for years. And this is a brand that I think has built up an enormous amount of goodwill. I feel like almost everybody recognizes and knows the name Acorns. So what is it like... What attracted you there? And then what has it been like to kind of work with that team over time and see this come to life?
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. So, Steve Cohen started a venture capital fund Point72 Ventures. And I worked on the launch of the fund and started working with all of the different portfolio companies when we would make an investment. And one of the first ones was Acorns and I just absolutely fell in love with the brand and the mission of the company, which is to empower everyday investors to start saving and investing. It was very different from anything I had done, I'd always worked in financial services, sort of making money for people who already had a lot of money, versus giving back. And so the CEO, Noah Kerner, he was just like, "What you did in three days, no one has done in three years." And what he meant was just the velocity of the coverage, but also how on message it was at the time, or I think is still true today.
Jessica Schaefer:
But one, there aren't a lot of people who go into financial communications. Most people who go into PR are like, "I want to do beauty or fashion or consumer or entertainment, something a little bit more sexier." Most people are not like, "Oh, I want to do FinTech." That's just not a common thing you hear out of people, majoring in PR. So, there was definitely a need for it. And then I worked on another funding announcement and that CEO was like, "Oh, I want you to come and work for me." And then Steve was like, "Well, you're not going anywhere." So I ended up having three people who all wanted me to handle their communications. And so I thought, "Why don't I start Bevel?" And at the same time really joined Acorn as a partner. And more recently, I joined as their chief communications officer because they were considering going public and I wanted to be the one to take them into the public markets.
Daniel Scrivner:
Talk a little bit about that. Because I know you work with a number of companies obviously, leading up to IPOs. Now, obviously, a very common route through a SPAC, which is in some way similar but different. You have to get shareholder support, people have to basically vote and say yes that they do want this company to come public. And all of that's fascinating because these companies typically have been private for five, 10 years. But I think somewhere in the five to 10 year range is pretty typical. And now they're getting ready to go public, and I know that you work with them on the airstrip, 12 months before they take off. What are you doing? And why is that period so important?
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. So, a lot of companies come to us when they're either considering any sort of liquidity event, whether they're going to be acquired or they're going to go public via SPAC or the traditional route. And Bevel is one of the few firm that works with a company from seed all the way into liquidity. In that 12 months period, it's critical that you're really building out the profile of the executive team. I think in the beginning stages of a private company, most founders or CEOs tend to focus on product and customers and not as much of building their external profile. It's very important that investors know who's helming the ship and building out that executive bench so that it's not just this typical founder profile, but it's a real company. And then figuring out those 12 months leading up, what announcements do we have? How can we figure out key growth metrics that we can communicate to investors? Which ones make sense? Which ones don't make sense? And you better make sure you have them right, or else compliance and the SEC will come knocking on your door.
Jessica Schaefer:
So we figure out what does this roadmap look like? How can we from point moving forward, try to grow the valuation from a billion dollars to two billion dollars, to three billion dollars? And a lot of that comes from the public markets and the image and the perception. And I think you've seen a lot of companies who haven't done it well, if you look at the WeWork example, which is, everybody knows, but it's fairly tragic. I don't think Adam Neumann really managed that well from a public relations point of view anyways.
Daniel Scrivner:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). No, it's a great example because I feel like everyone, when you say WeWork, I think everybody thinks of obviously all the drama around Adam Neumann, and yet I find what they've built amazing. I love being in WeWork locations. They're beautiful, they're really nice. And so, it is a great example. It is a little bit counterintuitive to think that, "Okay, I'm getting ready to go public." Obviously we need to focus on the company, we also need to focus on the exec. I guess what dos and don'ts, what tactics are you using when you're working with execs? Is it figuring out their personal brand? Is it figuring out whether they should tweet or post and how much? Because I feel now there's also a lot of CEOs that have almost celebrity status just under their own brand name. Talk a little bit about that.
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. Well, I think one, so we're launching a completely separate practice in early March focused on building executive profiles just personality branding, which is a little bit different work than marketing communications. So, it's more of a publicist role. And my view is as a CEO, the way you're leading your company and your actual day-to-day responsibilities should change. So, you should be focused on communicating with investors, communicating with the media, everything should be external. And then you should have a really strong president or COO who's running the day-to-day operation. And what we focus on is what conferences make the most sense? How do we build custom events so that we're communicating to investors or our customers? Having a really strong internal communications program so that you're leading the organization through this change and they know everything that's going on and they're very excited about it. And hopefully working harder, which in this era of the great resignation is even more important than it ever has been.
Jessica Schaefer:
And then awards and all those sorts of things. But making sure there's a very consistent and steady drumbeat. And I love to really understand who these people are as individuals, what makes you a crazy person, that would decide to start a company is not exactly the path that most people take. And so we try to figure out what was your childhood like? How were you raised? What influenced you? Why are you doing what you're doing? And then putting some human element into who they are to help communicate their story.
Daniel Scrivner:
One of the things you touched on there was consistency, which makes me think of one... When I think about the execs that have been the most impressive that I've worked with, one just in and of themselves, they're very consistent. And I think a big part of that's important for building trust. That's important for always showing up as the same person. It's also very subtle in that, I think a lot of people don't necessarily think, "Oh, if I'm more consistent, if I show up in a more consistent way day-to-day, it's going to build trust." Just talk a little bit about the importance of consistency and why that's so important in shaping perception or managing perception or keeping it positive.
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. Well, speaking of consistency, Steve wore the same sweater every single day. Not the same one, I'm assuming he had all different sweaters that he would dry clean. Sort of an expected thing, it does help to build trust, but in terms of what you're communicating externally, I think it's important to figure out three key themes or narratives that you're always touching upon that align back to your values, but also to the brand. And then any opportunity there is to be talking about those in the market, you should be taking that. And then on the other side, I think the numbers, whether you hit them or not, they should always be the same numbers and they should be consistent to the brand. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's what the market always reports on. I'll give you an example. When we first started building Acorns brand, every single reporter wanted to talk about AUM. And for Acorns, it wasn't about AUM. It was really about how do we help every single American who's making under a 100,000 a year, start saving and investing.
Jessica Schaefer:
It's very difficult when investing change to a massive high AUM. Right? And most financial institutions, the way they make money is by making money off of people who have already amassed their wealth. So we really had to flip the narrative in the script and tell reporters that's not important. Like, "We're not even focused on that number. I know you are focused on that number, but here's what we're looking at."
Daniel Scrivner:
That's really interesting. I want to talk for a second about some of the big moments that will happen when you're trying to obviously get a company coverage. And so you talked about having these three themes, having this steady drumbeat of obviously updates or new stories or data points or releases interviews around those things. But this also, the single appearance that can have a dramatic effect. And I know we were talking before that Acorns had a segment on the Today Show, which resulted in what? A 100,000 plus downloads within an hour? Which is incredible. So talk a little bit about those, why they're important and maybe just how much work goes into one of those really big moments of public exposure.
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. So, I think a lot of CEOs, when they first start working with a PR firm, they just want a ton of stuff to be happening. They always want to see opportunities. I would argue you should really be working towards the high impact and high value opportunities. The one you mentioned when we had Acorns on the Today Show was a big product placement. And within minutes, it wasn't even an hour, within minutes, we had over 120,000 downloads. That's just crazy. And so, opportunities like that are really important. I have another example, we just launched this travel company where you can search based on price versus where you to go. It's called Elude. And within the first week of us launching them, they had 20,000 signups, 10,000 Instagram followers. And then they closed their next round of funding in three months. And it was after they went on Fox Business, which a lot of people think like, "Oh, Fox." Now, everybody wants to go on Fox if it doesn't align with their political views, I encourage everyone to go on Fox. Because they had investors reaching out to them nonstop and their round was oversubscribed.
Jessica Schaefer:
And so that was really important for them. And when they initially approached us, they didn't even have a product. It was really just an idea. A lot of people come at that stage and at that stage sometimes PR makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on is this a product that we've never seen before? And does it have a need in the market? If that's true, it makes a lot of sense. If you come to us with a product that doesn't exist and there's a lot of noise in that specific segment, it's going to be very, very difficult to do PR.
Daniel Scrivner:
When you were talking about going after those high impact opportunities, it sounds a lot like investing. It sounds like you're looking for that asymmetrical outcome where you can land this one show and obviously have a big impact. How does that shape how your team spends their time? Is it something like 50, 60, 75, even 80% of their times focused on chasing those big opportunities and the rest is the steady drumbeat? I'm curious just from a resource allocation, I don't know, time investment standpoint, how you think about those things.
Jessica Schaefer:
Well, from a time investment standpoint, we might be operating at a loss, but because it takes a lot of time to your point to develop the right relationship for your client. One, we already have most of them, but we do like to work in categories where we haven't been before. So, we've always been focused in FinTech. I would say we're the top FinTech communications firm, but then I'm just a curious person. And so I love of working in different industries. And so travel for example, the team had to spend a lot of time building relationships with travel and leisure and [inaudible], and all those different publications that would make sense for them. The way we actually pay our team is different. So it's based on a hedge fund model, it's performance-based pay, where they have set KPIs and those KPIs are aligned with what our clients are trying to achieve. So, number of interviews secured, awards, conferences, number of stories, and all those sorts of things. And if they hit those, they get paid out a quarterly bonus which is nice for them and nice for us.
Daniel Scrivner:
Let's talk a little bit about that because that's one unique aspect of your model. Another one is this idea of... Well, there's two others that we should talk about. One is that you hire people from outside of PR, which I think in and of itself is really interesting. And then the other one is that you have this model where you're not only an external firm, not obviously a partner that companies are working with around PR, but you're literally embedding your team and yourselves inside that company. Can you talk about both of those? And if I've missed anything else, if there's any other kind of fascinating aspects of your model, I'd love to just explore that for a little bit.
Jessica Schaefer:
Yeah. So we're a PR firm that doesn't hire PR people.
Daniel Scrivner:
To start.
Jessica Schaefer:
Try telling that to a recruiting firm. We actually ended up hiring an internal recruiter. I think it's really important for culture, but we're looking for different kinds of people. So a lot of our team, they come from Goldman or McKinsey. We have people who came from the Shorty Awards and just have different backgrounds in marketing or political affairs, which I think is interesting and they sort of have a different hustle about them that I really like. But at Bevel, I think it's more important that you have charisma, you're a native storyteller, you're intellectually curious, and then everything else we can teach you. And so I just like to hire really smart people from outside of communication. What's frustrating about hiring communications people, is they tend to have been trained the wrong way. And so then you have to untrain them and depending on their seniority, it can be a little bit of a mentally defeating process.
Jessica Schaefer:
So, that's that. On embedding our people into the clients. So I think it's critical and very important that our teams are embedded for a couple of reasons. One, you need to get the executives in the habit of just constantly communicating to you one what's going on, what's important to them. It really needs to be a collaborative process. So if you hire a PR room and you think like, oh, they're just going to come to me with all these amazing ideas when I've told them nothing that never happened. And it really is what you put in is what you get. As part of our model, we have... For Elude for example, we're their external head of communications. Public.com, same thing. And I think that when you are these high gross startups, I don't even know if you really need an internal communications person.
Jessica Schaefer:
It tends to be a revolving door. And it's a really hard to be in at the company because you're trying to build this startup, you don't have any other levers to pull. Whereas at Bevel, we work with very, very high profile investors and VCs and the media always want them on. And so then it's like, "Okay, well, it's tit for tat." If I get an opportunity there, then I can slot my client in elsewhere. So, I think long-term, that makes a lot of sense. And then the third thing that we do and something will be expanding on this year, will be making a very big announcement, is we actually take equity in our clients and we don't take on any short term projects.
Jessica Schaefer:
I can't tell you how many companies have come to us. Like, "Can you do this funding round?" I just refuse. I don't believe in it. I think that building a brand should have sort of a snowball effect where it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And so the reason we take equity, one, is because the work that we're doing is increasing the valuations of the company. So I think we should get compensated, but also it really helped to align the work that we're doing with the brand.
Daniel Scrivner:
It's really unique. And I would imagine it takes a lot of courage. Have you ever gotten into arguments around, "Well, why don't you hire regular PR people? They're not good enough?" Have you had any of those arguments with other peers, other people at other firms?
Jessica Schaefer:
Every single day. In the beginning, I tried and tried and tried. I tried every single recruiter who was known to hiring communication. And it was just awful. It was awful. And then when we would have new people come in, "Oh, well, why don't you just do this? Why don't you just hire from this agency?" And I said, "Well, we're not an agency. And we're trying to build something different and you can't build something different by hiring the same."
Daniel Scrivner:
You talk exactly like a founder. So, I'm not surprised that you work with a lot of the best founders in companies. I want to switch for a second and talk about crafting a narrative. So, as an investor with a design background, I spend a lot of time working with companies to do very simple stuff, which is try to provide an objective lens on what they're building, why it's interesting, why it's important. And the only reason I say that is because I'm amazed at the number of times where people are like, "Wow!" And it really just takes, I think another party engaging to help somebody maybe realize their own story. But you also just realize that even if you're in it all the time, you don't necessarily know the story. You don't know the right way to frame it up.
Daniel Scrivner:
And so, I want to get your take on one, do you have a process that you follow for crafting a narrative and then just any thoughts. They can be random, they can be all over the map of what does it take to craft a narrative? And how do you know when you have something that has a spark to it or is working?
Jessica Schaefer:
So it's interesting, even when companies approach us and sometimes they'll have their marketing or their comms present reach out, we never take a client on unless we can speak with the founder. And the reason is I really want to understand what is your backstory? What is your narrative? Do you have it? Are you going to be somebody who I can put in front of the press? And not everyone is a great spokesperson. I think everyone has their own method. Something you said earlier was, is it Twitter? Should I be on Instagram? Should it be podcast? And every executive has their own thing. There are some people who are awful. I mean, God, awful on TV, but they're amazing on radio or they're amazing at an internal event or something that's a little bit more controlled where if you stack a fireside chat with their best friend, normally they can speak to their best friend.
Jessica Schaefer:
I love to sit down with the client and we have a pretty formulaic process in the beginning. We'll have a half day kickoff meeting where we just run through every single question that would really help get us up to speed so that we can speak intelligent on your behalf. But what we're really doing is story mining and figuring out what is unique to you? I tend to, if something's not interesting, I'll tune off for a while. And then you know. When somebody says something, you're like, "Oh, that's it. That's your story. That makes a lot of sense." And then we come back and we'll provide an entire roadmap on just sort of how do we keep building on this narrative that's unique to you? And sometimes the founders will try to change or do something. And I'm like, "No." The best people... I mean, anyone you think about who has an interesting profile or brand, they're always very true to themselves. And I think that's especially important when you think about crisis communications.
Daniel Scrivner:
Well, I'll ask one more question. I want to talk about crisis communications because I think that's interesting we can not talk about that. One of the things that I always find interesting too, is when you're having those conversations with founders about what they're building, sometimes it clicks and you both have the same interpretation or the same idea, but sometimes there's a little bit of back and forth of like, "Well, this is the interesting thing that I think is there." And you're like, "Well, no, I actually think this is the interesting thing." Do you have that battle and back and forth ever to try to agree or get on the same page around what's the right way to frame it? And or what are the most entry of the story?
Jessica Schaefer:
Of course. There are so many founders who tend to do the same thing and they think everything's interesting and it's not. How many VCs have you heard that say, "Oh, we really support our founders and we're there for them."
Daniel Scrivner:
Every VC.
Jessica Schaefer:
Every single VC. And so when you say, listen, you have to push back and you have to push back confidently and say, "I've taken a look at over 100 VCs and everyone says that. So, that's really not unique. Let's go back to the drawing board." And they'll sometimes be a little bit taken aback. I don't think that a lot of CEOs are used to people talking to them like that. Right? And then we try to get down to what is actually unique? What is it that not every single neobank and FinTech is saying? Democratizing access is not interesting anymore.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. No. And that's one thing I thought was so interesting about Acorns is, I think part of the success there is you manage to take something that can sound very like, "Wawawa, yeah, everybody's doing that." And turn it into something that's special and unique and feels really relevant to that brand. I want to ask one more question around this. You talked about any public figure that's well known is very true to themselves. And something I've spent a bit of time I'm thinking about and I still don't really know where I land on it, is the importance of having a little bit of controversy. And I don't mean that in the negative sense. I mean that in terms of I also think, especially now part of showing up as yourself is in some ways being immovable or being like, "No, this is a thing I really care about." Or being like, "I know that this isn't popular, but this is my approach." And leaning into that.
Daniel Scrivner:
How much of that do you think about and how much of that do you work with companies on? And I think what I'm asking there is like, there's the... In some ways you can think, okay, if you have an idea that goes against the grain, then we should definitely lean into that because all press is good press. What are your thoughts there on the importance of controversy or not important?
Jessica Schaefer:
I love controversy. Reporters are always looking for the opposite or contrarian viewpoint. So, if you have it and your spokesperson has it, I would say lean into it as much as possible. And that can come in a lot of different forms. If you really want to control the message, I would suggest writing an op-ed for Fortune or TechCrunch or Recode or whatever. If you're a little bit more comfortable and maybe you're not in a regulated environment, then you can test the waters a little bit and be controversial. I think the best form of where you can do that the best is probably on TV. You should definitely be careful because then it can get cut up and replayed in a lot of different ways. And we've seen that happen.
Jessica Schaefer:
At the beginning of COVID, we were representing one of the physicians who was working with Dr. Fauci. And he had never done TV in his life, he had zero Instagram followers, zero any followers to be honest. We had to [crosstalk]-
Daniel Scrivner:
Followers.
Jessica Schaefer:
Negative followers. He showed up to do his first broadcast, it was a dark room. The background was awful, the lighting was awful. I think he was... I don't even know where he was looking. So, a lot of work had to go into grooming him. But by the end of it, he was on all the late night shows, the daily shows. It was insane. So...
Daniel Scrivner:
That's amazing. A little bit of work goes a long ways. Talk a little bit about crisis communication. And the reason I want to bring that up is at a super high level it feels like, say something very generic. All of us, whether individuals or company, we're going to go through good times, we're going to go through bad times. And so it feels like a PR strategy is recognizing that there's good times and bad times. And then being able to help people when they're in a moment, that's not so great. In an example today that I feel like is a company that is going through that is definitely Peloton, where I'm like, I think they make great products, I think it seems to be a great company. It's obviously in a moment in time where things are not great from a bunch of different angles in terms of how they're perceived. I guess, how do you approach that? How do you think about and work with companies when they're in a not so great moment?
Jessica Schaefer:
So, first I just have to say, I'm obsessed with what's going on with Peloton right now, because it's such a classic dumb PR case where probably some junior internal employee basically, and just like that reached out to them. They said, "Hey, we really want to feature Peloton, blah, blah, blah." And the junior employee probably said, "Oh my God, this great opportunity to be on this show." And they're all excited. And then they forgot that that was only 25% of the job. 75% of the job is what episode? Who's going to be riding the bike? What's going to happen? And clearly none of that, there was no dialogue on any of that. And the show actually reached out to us to use our office for one of the episodes. So, I know how these things work and with Billions, there was a lot of back and forth as I'm sure you can imagine with the producer when I was working for Steve.
Jessica Schaefer:
And so, one, not every opportunity is a good opportunity. And I tell every single person who's ever worked for me in communications and especially above all, when you get on the phone with a reporter or any opportunity, you should really understand if it's a conference or if it's a media opportunity, things are different. But let's say it's a conference and your executive is going to be on a panel. You should always figure out, who else is going to be on the panel? Do we want to sit next to that person? Does that person have a viewpoint that's aligned with our values? Is it going to be stale? Is it not going to be stale? Can we figure out how to just do a keynote that would be for our conference? For broadcast, you always want to know who's going on before and who's going on after.
Jessica Schaefer:
So if someone from Robinhood was going on today, because the stock price is down to $13 a share, and then you have your executive in FinTech on after talking about rainbows and roses and how amazing the product is, it's probably not going to come across that well, because they're going to talk about the Robinhood like, "Oh, FinTech is down overall, there's a lot of overvaluation. Do you think we're seeing a market correction?" And same goes with media interviews. So reporters will call, "Oh, I want to get on the phone." Everybody thinks it's a great opportunity. It might not be a great opportunity. I could keep going out about crisis forever, but...
Daniel Scrivner:
Yes, I think that would be great. I would love to hear you talk a little bit more. I was just going to say one thing, which is, it sounds like at a meta level, what you're really saying is it's go to land the opportunity, but then you really want to try to control it and control the outcome and make sure it's going to be an amazing outcome.
Jessica Schaefer:
Right. I always say no bad stories, at least not on my watch. I don't want any surprises. I always try to understand exactly how the piece is going to read. And that helps also manage the relationship internally. So I can go to the CEO at Acorn, he's never going to be surprised by what's coming out ever. Another thing that happens in crisis, and this is probably one of the funniest things to watch from my perspective, someone will reach out and they'll say, "Oh, all these allegations, here's all my questions. I'm writing this piece." And then the instinct always every single time, is like, "Oh my God, do they have the story? They're going to write a headpiece. But we didn't even do this. Let's bring the lawyers in. Let's have the lawyers call the reporter. We're going to sue them."It's all crazy.
Jessica Schaefer:
So, instead of getting very emotional, I would say, figure out really tactically, does the reporter even have a story? Probably not. Now, I know that a ton times they don't have a story because you need a valid source. And so what I've seen a lot of sort of very green pure people do, is they'll write back answers to every single question. And then basically-
Daniel Scrivner:
Becoming the source.
Jessica Schaefer:
... you just became the source. You just gave them the story. So, if any communications people are listening or any CEOs, I would say, don't do that. Maybe get on the phone and speak on background and go line by line and just approach it as if you are a lawyer and factually just say this isn't accurate. Let me tell you what is accurate.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to talk a little bit about investing in PR. And doing that instead of marketing. And obviously this is playing kind of right into Bevel, which you're doing, but this is also why I wanted to have you on the show, is one thing that I've observed now, is a lot of very smart people that I really respect. And these are typically VCs or CEOs, senior execs who have been really vocal about how much they like PR. And as an example, I was doing some research before this and Bill Gurley has talked multiple times. He's a well known partner at Benchmark, and he said things like, most companies way underinvest in PR, they will spend to the moon on variable marketing, meaning maybe this month it's a 100,000, maybe next month is 200,000, but they stop PR at 50K a month. Which is crazy to me.
Daniel Scrivner:
And then his other point was... I like this. He loves PR as much as he hates paid marketing, because I'm sure he feels like PR is controllable, it's this great outcome and paid marketing can just be a slog. What's your reaction to that? And what do you say to a founder or a company that maybe just doesn't know why it's smart to invest in PR? Talk about the investment case, why it's so important?
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. So we work with... 50% of our portfolios actually we work with venture capital funds and then the other 50% is brands. So, I've heard it on both sides. There are VCs who are like you need to over index on PR and overinvest. And then there are others who honestly, I just don't think understand it. And they probably had bad experiences because there's a lot of PR firms out there who will literally take on any client. And you just can't do that because one, not... I mean, let's be honest, not every product is interesting, not everyone has a story, and PR isn't right for everyone. But I think now what we're seeing is at least on the growth marketing side, the costs have gotten significantly higher, crazy high. And people are spending insane amounts of money. And so the CAC, which is cost per acquisition of a customer, has skyrocketed at least on the FinTech side of things.
Jessica Schaefer:
And so people are spending a lot of money to acquire a customer. And typically they're doing that through paid ads on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and then every single tech company from what I've seen, maybe this is a grandiose statement, but a lot of them are working with the same influencers. And so there's customer fatigue. They're seeing the same influencers used across all of these platform. And then they don't... One is an ad, and two, it's not authentic. And with PR, you can one, build your own content channels and you can earn trust with your customers and acquire them in a different way. I think a good example is one of the venture capital funds we work with is called Torch Capital, they've invested in Sweetgreen, Zocdoc, Rho. They've invested in a lot of amazing companies. One of their FinTech companies is this neobank called Lili.
Jessica Schaefer:
And the founder was actually very against doing PR. And the VC was like, "No, no, no, you have to work with Bevel. I promise you stop spending money on growth marketing." And so we literally doubled their customer base in nine months from 220,000 to 500,000 customers. And we did this really interesting content campaign with Adam Lahid, who is an influencer on Instagram. And we had over 1.5 million views on TikTok and Instagram. So things like that, I think you can start to marry different channels in the same way without paying them and doing a paid ad.
Daniel Scrivner:
Yeah. I think your point around, which is what everyone wants, that you're building this proprietary communication channel is really important. And I think people are realizing that anytime you're paying, one, those costs can change. The number of CPG founders that have just had a terrible 2021 because their cost to a choir customers literally tripled and is still at that high level and they're struggling to get it back down, is crazy. And I want to talk a little bit about when you recommend that companies start investing in PR. So you talked about that you guys are one of the first, obviously, you'll work with companies as early as seed. At the same time, as we've talked about a little bit, there are companies that are at the seed stage that don't really have anything that's ready for the world yet. They don't have a product that's compelling or they have an idea, but it's not visualized or they haven't invested in brand. So, just what's your take on when it's right to start investing in PR? What are kind of the check boxes that people need to check to know, okay, yes, I'm ready?
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. So we probably look at over 300 deals or companies a year and we'll take on 10% of those. So, like 30 companies, now our portfolio is at about 45, but what we look at, we look get three things. One, are you working on something that we haven't heard of before? Because we see so much that if it sounds the as something that somebody else is doing, it's very likely that it is the same. So, are you doing something that the market needs? Two, are you a second or third time founder? And then three, the network effect. And what I mean by that is, who is in your network? Who is backing you? For the travel company, we had never represented a travel company, but the co-founder price line was on their board. And they also had Union Square Ventures as an investor. And so they just had this line of really interesting people around them supporting the brand.
Jessica Schaefer:
They had never started a company before. And so what that means is, we're literally starting at ground zero when they have no media profile. You at least need to have the co-founder of price line going on CNBC and saying, "Hey, I believe in this company and here's why." So if you don't have one of those three things, you shouldn't do PR. And then there's also in the beginning, if you look at a company like Plaid for example, Plaid didn't do any sort of PR in the beginning, their whole mission was, "Let's sign on every single FinTech and let's really build our product." And it wasn't until their acquisition fell through that they picked up on the media and PR side.
Daniel Scrivner:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so it can also be very late in a company's life when it actually makes sense to start investing. Yep.
Jessica Schaefer:
Right. Yeah.
Daniel Scrivner:
Makes a lot of sense. I feel like we've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you're like we absolutely have to talk about before we wrap?
Jessica Schaefer:
I don't think so. I do think we covered a lot in 50 minutes.
Daniel Scrivner:
I'm going to ask one random question, which is, it's timely in the sense that I feel like this has been building for a while. But I know a number of founders, one of the perspectives I think a lot of founders have today is that the media is out to get us. Meaning they don't like tech companies, they always want to have the bear case, they want to try to compare you to Theranos or WeWork, what is your take there? And the reason I'm asking is because I always struggle with, is this real versus per se... Is this even a thing or is this just a shared sense? Do you think there's any validity there? I don't Know. Any thoughts.
Jessica Schaefer:
So, I have a secret to tell you. Founders and CEOs typically like control and they like to be in control. And the one thing you cannot control is the media. And that's what journalism is for. And so what I've found, and it's almost every single founder I ever worked with, in the beginning, they always have that view. Media is out to get us, because in their peer group it's probably similar. And what I say to them is building a relationship with the press is like anything else, you should approach it as if you're building a relationship to make a big sale or with an investor, go out to drinks with reporters, open up the book to the extent that you can.
Jessica Schaefer:
Really share with them what's going on because there is nothing worse than having somebody else tell your own story for you. And the reason is, is typically wrong. So I think any time you hear that, it's just their reaction was, "Oh, they're out to get me." And then they didn't get on the phone. And then the reporter has to fill the paper with somebody's notes. And so they end up calling everyone else who isn't you.
Daniel Scrivner:
And on the flip side of that, and maybe you don't have any pieces come out like this for your clients. But when you're working with someone and they have that reaction, whether you think it's justified or not, what do you say to them? Is it just, don't worry, this is just one story. What would be the general line of thinking? Or what would you say to that person?
Jessica Schaefer:
I try to use a super basic example like, do you have a friend who cheated on their partner? And if they say yes, then I'm like, "Okay. Well, should that person speak to the media or should they let their spouse speak to the media?" And then they sort of... That example for whatever reason, it's very relatable and people then seem to understand. But I always just... I can be fairly convincing and I can always convince someone to get on the phone. And I'll usually say, "Listen, if you're not going to do the interview, I'm going to do it on your behalf." And then they're like-
Daniel Scrivner:
It's probably a good-
Jessica Schaefer:
... "I'll do it." Yes.
Daniel Scrivner:
It's the ACE in your back pocket to make sure that they show up. This has been incredible. I wanted to cover, dive deep into PR, talk about why it's interesting, talk about the different ways to approach it. I feel like we've covered an incredible amount of ground. Where can people, and typically I have all of this in notes. I did not do my homework this time. So, I'm just going to ask the question. Where can people find Bevel and where can they follow you if you're on Twitter, if you're on social?
Jessica Schaefer:
Sure. So, they can go to bevelpr.com. We also have a community called Bevel Books and Bourbon, where we basically have the top thought leaders and different novelists go through their books and we'll meet quarterly. So, that can be fun and you can some of our clients and also different reporters. And then on social, it's funny we have our blog, so I'll often write for that. I'm big on Instagram stories. I don't post a lot, but if you want to follow my adventures, it's just JFran_PR.
Daniel Scrivner:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for the time. This has been incredible, Jessica. I appreciate it.
Jessica Schaefer:
Thank you. Thanks for your time.
On Outlier Academy, Daniel Scrivner explores the tactics, routines, and habits of world-class performers working at the edge—in business, investing, entertainment, and more. In each episode, he decodes what they've mastered and what they've learned along the way. Start learning from the world’s best today.
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